I used to be “Christian”. Before Covid and the protests over George Floyd. Jeremy Jernigan (JeremyJernigan.com) was the pastor of the church I attended when Covid hit. He spoke up on his blog about many different topics that are controversial in the church. And while what he spoke was rooted in the Bible and Jesus, the elders (aka old white guys) of that church didn’t like his stance and kicked him out, fired him. I was on his side and when that happened I said goodbye to church. I didn’t and still don’t want to be connected to those people. You should check him out. He speaks up for people of color, LGBTQ, poor/homeless, and against Christian Nationalism. He’s honest and down to earth and funny. He moved back to Arizona from Oregon when he was let go, but I still follow him.
My mom calls herself a Jesus following Christian, but she absolutely will not even begin to examine the fact that the “Christians” in power right now have nothing in common with her beliefs. I asked her about this specifically, and her response was “please honor my request to not talk about this.”
My take away is that Christians in general will not address or examine topics that make them uncomfortable.
I was listening to a reel (I'm terrible with handles and names, but she's kind and articulate and an atheist) this week discussing how much religion offers structure to our psychology, and if we're dependent on them, stripping the structure away too quickly can be dangerous. It's stuck with me. I know my first husband was undone by leaving fundamentalism. It broke him in ways he's never recovered from.
I’ve been following Jesus for over 50 years but haven’t been to church in over 49 years. The angry god of the Bible made no sense from what Jesus taught and how he lived. I call myself
Christian Nationalism is to Christianity what the Taliban is to Islam - a bunch of cultural nonsense dressed up in religious clothing, not even trying to conceal their hatred and bigotry. Christians who reject this should absolutely stand up and declare how wrong it is, and to be fair I think most 'mainline' protestant denominations like Anglicans and Methodists, and the Catholic and Orthodox churches do absolutely reject this and stand against it. So is your challenge to the evangelicals who are not christian nationalists?
Sure, and I appreciate this point. I make a constant effort to toss the various terms around: evangelical, fundamentalists, patriarchy...each one has its commonality and exceptionalism. Fundamentalist patriarchy is a dark corner that reaches the middle of the room in Christian Nationalism, and then, of course, there are the nationalists who aren't particularly religious at all. What do they all have in common? They're using the Christian identity to pursue political dominance. At some point, the labels start to feel like semantics.
As a Catholic, I must warn you there is a Christian Nationalist contingent in the Church. They center on people like dark money funded Leonard Leo, Opus Dei (one of the big reasons I’ve never liked them, the DaVinci Code is rubbish,) Tim Busch and the Napa Institute, and prelates like Cardinal Raymond Burke. People like Newt Gingrich, Bill Donohue, Michael Hichborn, and Austin Ruse (a nasty guy,) are allied with them. Most of them stood around and badmouthed Pope Francis. These people have far too much clout and power in setting the agendas in American Catholicism.
I can understand. Sometimes it seems the institutional church is its own worst enemy. They could start by ditching the real cause of the problem, which is clericalism.
If you're still a member of the RCC, you should look up these names: Fernando Karadima, Marcial Maciel, Theodore McCarrick, Roger Mahoney, George Pell, Roger Vangheluwe, William Keeler, Hans Groer. I should also take this opportunity to let you know that "laicized" means "retired." Most RCC members assume that it means "fired," but it doesn't. If secular institutions retired offenders and provided for their food, care, and medical needs for the rest of their lives, there would be an outcry. Please see my comment to Tia on this thread. Thank you for reading my message, and I wish you the best.
I agree. Pope Leo is taking the correct stance by calling for attention to the poor and to migrants. Our government treats both groups with contempt and treats detained migrants with contempt. At least 170 American citizens have been arrested and detained by ICe despite the fact they have valid ID. American born Latinos often feel obliged to carry proof of citizenship with themselves at all times. ICE agents have accused legal citizens of carrying fake Real ID cards when they are actually genuine.
I know I’m late to this but I have to chime in about Orthodoxy. Nationalism has always been intertwined in Eastern Orthodoxy. One could say that’s been their curse since the Great Schism. It’s a big problem in all of the historically Orthodox countries, especially Russia. Orthodoxy in the USA has a reputation for attracting disaffected young white men with groyper tendencies.
Christian Nationalism is a bigger problem in American Orthodox than Catholicism because of the competing jurisdictions. Problematic priests and laypeople can always move to a new jurisdiction if someone tries to rein them in.
Thank you for your insight, there are not many orthodox churches in my country, so my knowledge of orthodoxy is only based on their theology, which of course I should know better than to think that would make the difference!
I’m very well aware of these clerics as well, and the scandals they brought in their wake. They failed to follow their own rules, and got away with it due to clericalism. The church needs to ditch the clericalism, and to ditch the idea they can impose their own sexual mores on people in what is supposed to be a secular country. My faith doesn’t depend upon them, although they make the image of the church rather rotten.
Sexual abuse isn’t new in the church. It has gone on for centuries, but the institutional church can’t hide it any more. We failed to get rid of the clericalism. The institutional church has always found it easy to blame people or forces outside the church, but the real problem is their own failures, and I’m concerned that they will never learn. What I believe doesn’t depend upon who’s running the church. I can understand and don’t criticize people who leave Catholicism for other beliefs. They have had more than enough. The worst part is it drives a lot of young people away. The more conservative Catholics find everything else under the sun to blame except for themselves and the failures of the institutional church.
It's worth noting that SA is one of the most under-reported crimes on the books. That means that the information we have today represents only the tip of the iceberg. Even an iceberg metaphor is woefully inadequate. One need only extrapolate from today's Attorney General reports, Royal Commission reports, etc. Many Attorney Generals have their findings online and readily available. The Guardian has also covered these issues extensively. An example is their recent coverage of child trafficking (and much more) conducted by the Archdiocese of New Orleans. Bear with me here --- a criminal organization completing trillions of human rights violations over hundreds of years with impunity is not dealing with "failures." We are looking at organized crime *succeeding.* Young people walking away from organized crime is not tragic. For a criminal organization to *stop succeeding,* its members NEED to disenroll and disaffiliate. What we see today is hundreds of years of the RCC perfecting a system that makes Jeffrey Epstein look like a full amateur. Once again, take care.
I was raised progressive Catholic. Taught about and discussed climate change and social justice issues in Confirmation class. It was a total culture shock when I went to Mass in college and girls were covering their heads and people knelt for communion and the hate was so prevalent and undisguised. No focus on helping the downtrodden and our planet. I can completely understand how survivors of those situations, and those hated by them, do not want to hear “not all Christians” while so few stand up.
We spent 30 years as Salvation Army officers before retiring. In Canada, the SA has mostly felt like a mainline Protestant church with an evangelical heart, but lately in some places, it’s starting to mimic the U.S. version a bit — more political and far-right leaning. It saddens me. When I hear it from anyone in our organization I call them out. After we retired in 2022, we tried other churches in town — Anglican (a bit dull), one evangelical (blatantly anti-LGBTQ), and a Pentecostal one (nice, but too right-leaning). We eventually went back to the Salvation Army. It’s a bit of a drive, but it still feels like home. The SA in Canada isn’t political — we only advocate for the vulnerable and partner with government on social services.
The interview with Anthony Davis was excellent and very educating as I struggle to understand what "christian" nationalism really is. Seeing it from a woman's point of view turns out to be the most enlightening. It was the first time I had heard the term fundie baby voice. I Googled various women (Mike Johnsons's wife, Erica Kirk etc and there it was). It really brought home how creepy and extreme the movement is. Thank you for your courage to speak out.
Thanks for your willingness to tell the truth about your situation and experiences.
My own resistance to Christian nationalism had been to teach people how to do theological reflection. In my recent retirement, I just started a Substack: Thoughtful Theology: Basic Concepts.
I SO appreciate your writings. The world needs more truth-telling—grounded in real-world experience—about the evils of CN. Thank you! I first discovered your work through Angela Denker, another hero in my book.
This may be my bias showing, but I believe there are also respected male Christian leaders who have spoken boldly against Christian Nationalism—people like Adam Russell Taylor (Sojourners), Caleb Campbell (Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix), and Michael B. Curry (former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church). Too often, the media highlights the controversy around their witness rather than the truth of their conviction.
I share this not as a critique, but as part of my own experience. A few years ago, a feminist friend in my former church told me, “You older white guys had your chance—you failed. Now it’s our turn.” Her words startled me, but I tried to receive them with curiosity instead of defensiveness. Since that meeting I've asked myself many times: If my voice is discounted after 35 years of lay leadership, how can I still be helpful?
Men and women must work together—inside and outside the church—to confront the evils of CN. Thank you for leading with such insight, integrity, and conviction. I’m cheering you on and hope to be of help in any way I can. One other quick thing...
Recently, I attended a “No Kings Day” protest in Rockford, Illinois—a wonderful event with thousands of peace-loving people (and even a few dogs!). There were 8–10 short, energizing speeches—all by women. Ah, I left with a longing: I want men in the crowd to be able to say, “Yes, I’m part of this too. I see myself up there.” I’d love to see more men—of every age and color—feel welcomed in this marathon. I sent a few gentle notes to the organizers, but alas, no reply.
From one older, white, recovering conservative Christian—wishing you the very best as you continue to lead with courage and light.
I agree! We need more good (and especially older, white, experienced, recovering) men speaking up and out against this, and I'm grateful you pointed out some who are. Diverse voices are great, and women's, but in a lot of ways, this is still a man's world, and that privilege simply goes further.
I so much appreciate your work and am thankful for what you are bringing to the “Christian” world. I grew up Baptist and then was involved with the Non-denominational church for many years before rethinking my faith in the years that my husband was sick with a brain tumor and subsequently died in 2016. I still consider myself a Jesus follower but am somewhat homeless in the church world.
I really appreciate your writing and that you are educating people about this dangerous movement.
I was raised 3 generations deep in a fundamentalist evangelical cult in New England. Sermons on purity and modesty were constants growing up. A sexual abuse scandal finally split and decimated the church, which is so typical it's almost cliché.
Interestingly, when I was growing up in the 70s & 80s (GenXer here), I don't remember much talk about politics. Our tiny rural congregations were not yet politicized. That came later, thanks to right wing media.
The reason why I'm so dedicated to building community right now is because I understand the threat. So thank you for writing, people need to know what we're dealing with. The destruction is the point.
Other writers you might add to your Substack list are Nadia Bolz-Weber, Jemar Tisby, Kevin Nye.
I also think you might be missing some of what is going on in mainline churches. I get a newsletter from the Presbyterian Church (USA) that has very progressive content and action items to combat Christian Nationalism. I continue to be impressed by PCUSA leadership.
I used to be “Christian”. Before Covid and the protests over George Floyd. Jeremy Jernigan (JeremyJernigan.com) was the pastor of the church I attended when Covid hit. He spoke up on his blog about many different topics that are controversial in the church. And while what he spoke was rooted in the Bible and Jesus, the elders (aka old white guys) of that church didn’t like his stance and kicked him out, fired him. I was on his side and when that happened I said goodbye to church. I didn’t and still don’t want to be connected to those people. You should check him out. He speaks up for people of color, LGBTQ, poor/homeless, and against Christian Nationalism. He’s honest and down to earth and funny. He moved back to Arizona from Oregon when he was let go, but I still follow him.
Thank you for chipping away at this difficult topic of Christian Nationalism. You are being heard. You are speaking truth. Keep at it!
My mom calls herself a Jesus following Christian, but she absolutely will not even begin to examine the fact that the “Christians” in power right now have nothing in common with her beliefs. I asked her about this specifically, and her response was “please honor my request to not talk about this.”
My take away is that Christians in general will not address or examine topics that make them uncomfortable.
I was listening to a reel (I'm terrible with handles and names, but she's kind and articulate and an atheist) this week discussing how much religion offers structure to our psychology, and if we're dependent on them, stripping the structure away too quickly can be dangerous. It's stuck with me. I know my first husband was undone by leaving fundamentalism. It broke him in ways he's never recovered from.
I'm having similar experiences with my mom and trying to explain to her why her kids care so much about all this.
Thank you, Tia. Always grateful for you for your work.
I’ve been following Jesus for over 50 years but haven’t been to church in over 49 years. The angry god of the Bible made no sense from what Jesus taught and how he lived. I call myself
Jesusonian.
Christian Nationalism is to Christianity what the Taliban is to Islam - a bunch of cultural nonsense dressed up in religious clothing, not even trying to conceal their hatred and bigotry. Christians who reject this should absolutely stand up and declare how wrong it is, and to be fair I think most 'mainline' protestant denominations like Anglicans and Methodists, and the Catholic and Orthodox churches do absolutely reject this and stand against it. So is your challenge to the evangelicals who are not christian nationalists?
Sure, and I appreciate this point. I make a constant effort to toss the various terms around: evangelical, fundamentalists, patriarchy...each one has its commonality and exceptionalism. Fundamentalist patriarchy is a dark corner that reaches the middle of the room in Christian Nationalism, and then, of course, there are the nationalists who aren't particularly religious at all. What do they all have in common? They're using the Christian identity to pursue political dominance. At some point, the labels start to feel like semantics.
As a Catholic, I must warn you there is a Christian Nationalist contingent in the Church. They center on people like dark money funded Leonard Leo, Opus Dei (one of the big reasons I’ve never liked them, the DaVinci Code is rubbish,) Tim Busch and the Napa Institute, and prelates like Cardinal Raymond Burke. People like Newt Gingrich, Bill Donohue, Michael Hichborn, and Austin Ruse (a nasty guy,) are allied with them. Most of them stood around and badmouthed Pope Francis. These people have far too much clout and power in setting the agendas in American Catholicism.
That's one of the many reasons I'm no longer a practicing Catholic.
I can understand. Sometimes it seems the institutional church is its own worst enemy. They could start by ditching the real cause of the problem, which is clericalism.
If you're still a member of the RCC, you should look up these names: Fernando Karadima, Marcial Maciel, Theodore McCarrick, Roger Mahoney, George Pell, Roger Vangheluwe, William Keeler, Hans Groer. I should also take this opportunity to let you know that "laicized" means "retired." Most RCC members assume that it means "fired," but it doesn't. If secular institutions retired offenders and provided for their food, care, and medical needs for the rest of their lives, there would be an outcry. Please see my comment to Tia on this thread. Thank you for reading my message, and I wish you the best.
Well I net these folks are going to haveva hard time with Pope Leo. I think folks are waking up and taking stands agsinst the hatred.
I agree. Pope Leo is taking the correct stance by calling for attention to the poor and to migrants. Our government treats both groups with contempt and treats detained migrants with contempt. At least 170 American citizens have been arrested and detained by ICe despite the fact they have valid ID. American born Latinos often feel obliged to carry proof of citizenship with themselves at all times. ICE agents have accused legal citizens of carrying fake Real ID cards when they are actually genuine.
I know I’m late to this but I have to chime in about Orthodoxy. Nationalism has always been intertwined in Eastern Orthodoxy. One could say that’s been their curse since the Great Schism. It’s a big problem in all of the historically Orthodox countries, especially Russia. Orthodoxy in the USA has a reputation for attracting disaffected young white men with groyper tendencies.
Christian Nationalism is a bigger problem in American Orthodox than Catholicism because of the competing jurisdictions. Problematic priests and laypeople can always move to a new jurisdiction if someone tries to rein them in.
Thank you for your insight, there are not many orthodox churches in my country, so my knowledge of orthodoxy is only based on their theology, which of course I should know better than to think that would make the difference!
I’m very well aware of these clerics as well, and the scandals they brought in their wake. They failed to follow their own rules, and got away with it due to clericalism. The church needs to ditch the clericalism, and to ditch the idea they can impose their own sexual mores on people in what is supposed to be a secular country. My faith doesn’t depend upon them, although they make the image of the church rather rotten.
Sexual abuse isn’t new in the church. It has gone on for centuries, but the institutional church can’t hide it any more. We failed to get rid of the clericalism. The institutional church has always found it easy to blame people or forces outside the church, but the real problem is their own failures, and I’m concerned that they will never learn. What I believe doesn’t depend upon who’s running the church. I can understand and don’t criticize people who leave Catholicism for other beliefs. They have had more than enough. The worst part is it drives a lot of young people away. The more conservative Catholics find everything else under the sun to blame except for themselves and the failures of the institutional church.
It's worth noting that SA is one of the most under-reported crimes on the books. That means that the information we have today represents only the tip of the iceberg. Even an iceberg metaphor is woefully inadequate. One need only extrapolate from today's Attorney General reports, Royal Commission reports, etc. Many Attorney Generals have their findings online and readily available. The Guardian has also covered these issues extensively. An example is their recent coverage of child trafficking (and much more) conducted by the Archdiocese of New Orleans. Bear with me here --- a criminal organization completing trillions of human rights violations over hundreds of years with impunity is not dealing with "failures." We are looking at organized crime *succeeding.* Young people walking away from organized crime is not tragic. For a criminal organization to *stop succeeding,* its members NEED to disenroll and disaffiliate. What we see today is hundreds of years of the RCC perfecting a system that makes Jeffrey Epstein look like a full amateur. Once again, take care.
Unfortunately, this is true. There are many SA cases where victims never came forward.
I was raised progressive Catholic. Taught about and discussed climate change and social justice issues in Confirmation class. It was a total culture shock when I went to Mass in college and girls were covering their heads and people knelt for communion and the hate was so prevalent and undisguised. No focus on helping the downtrodden and our planet. I can completely understand how survivors of those situations, and those hated by them, do not want to hear “not all Christians” while so few stand up.
We spent 30 years as Salvation Army officers before retiring. In Canada, the SA has mostly felt like a mainline Protestant church with an evangelical heart, but lately in some places, it’s starting to mimic the U.S. version a bit — more political and far-right leaning. It saddens me. When I hear it from anyone in our organization I call them out. After we retired in 2022, we tried other churches in town — Anglican (a bit dull), one evangelical (blatantly anti-LGBTQ), and a Pentecostal one (nice, but too right-leaning). We eventually went back to the Salvation Army. It’s a bit of a drive, but it still feels like home. The SA in Canada isn’t political — we only advocate for the vulnerable and partner with government on social services.
The interview with Anthony Davis was excellent and very educating as I struggle to understand what "christian" nationalism really is. Seeing it from a woman's point of view turns out to be the most enlightening. It was the first time I had heard the term fundie baby voice. I Googled various women (Mike Johnsons's wife, Erica Kirk etc and there it was). It really brought home how creepy and extreme the movement is. Thank you for your courage to speak out.
I agree, the interview was wonderful. I am urging friends to watch it.
I absolutely love the way you put into words this dynamic of “debate” that just doesn’t feel healthy, and why. Wonderful post.
Do you know about this?
https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/
Thanks for your willingness to tell the truth about your situation and experiences.
My own resistance to Christian nationalism had been to teach people how to do theological reflection. In my recent retirement, I just started a Substack: Thoughtful Theology: Basic Concepts.
Tia,
I SO appreciate your writings. The world needs more truth-telling—grounded in real-world experience—about the evils of CN. Thank you! I first discovered your work through Angela Denker, another hero in my book.
This may be my bias showing, but I believe there are also respected male Christian leaders who have spoken boldly against Christian Nationalism—people like Adam Russell Taylor (Sojourners), Caleb Campbell (Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix), and Michael B. Curry (former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church). Too often, the media highlights the controversy around their witness rather than the truth of their conviction.
I share this not as a critique, but as part of my own experience. A few years ago, a feminist friend in my former church told me, “You older white guys had your chance—you failed. Now it’s our turn.” Her words startled me, but I tried to receive them with curiosity instead of defensiveness. Since that meeting I've asked myself many times: If my voice is discounted after 35 years of lay leadership, how can I still be helpful?
Men and women must work together—inside and outside the church—to confront the evils of CN. Thank you for leading with such insight, integrity, and conviction. I’m cheering you on and hope to be of help in any way I can. One other quick thing...
Recently, I attended a “No Kings Day” protest in Rockford, Illinois—a wonderful event with thousands of peace-loving people (and even a few dogs!). There were 8–10 short, energizing speeches—all by women. Ah, I left with a longing: I want men in the crowd to be able to say, “Yes, I’m part of this too. I see myself up there.” I’d love to see more men—of every age and color—feel welcomed in this marathon. I sent a few gentle notes to the organizers, but alas, no reply.
From one older, white, recovering conservative Christian—wishing you the very best as you continue to lead with courage and light.
Warmly,
Brian
I agree! We need more good (and especially older, white, experienced, recovering) men speaking up and out against this, and I'm grateful you pointed out some who are. Diverse voices are great, and women's, but in a lot of ways, this is still a man's world, and that privilege simply goes further.
Benjamin Cremer is awesome! Add him to your list of Christian non christian nationalist
I so much appreciate your work and am thankful for what you are bringing to the “Christian” world. I grew up Baptist and then was involved with the Non-denominational church for many years before rethinking my faith in the years that my husband was sick with a brain tumor and subsequently died in 2016. I still consider myself a Jesus follower but am somewhat homeless in the church world.
Your voice is very much needed! Thank you!
I really appreciate your writing and that you are educating people about this dangerous movement.
I was raised 3 generations deep in a fundamentalist evangelical cult in New England. Sermons on purity and modesty were constants growing up. A sexual abuse scandal finally split and decimated the church, which is so typical it's almost cliché.
Interestingly, when I was growing up in the 70s & 80s (GenXer here), I don't remember much talk about politics. Our tiny rural congregations were not yet politicized. That came later, thanks to right wing media.
The reason why I'm so dedicated to building community right now is because I understand the threat. So thank you for writing, people need to know what we're dealing with. The destruction is the point.
Other writers you might add to your Substack list are Nadia Bolz-Weber, Jemar Tisby, Kevin Nye.
I also think you might be missing some of what is going on in mainline churches. I get a newsletter from the Presbyterian Church (USA) that has very progressive content and action items to combat Christian Nationalism. I continue to be impressed by PCUSA leadership.